Ease of steering when sheeted out.

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fluidity
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:43 am
Location: Wellington/Porirua New Zealand

Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:04 am

I have an Element 4 (current Elements are #5 in the series)
It has a particular issue that though it can de-power OK, the steering powers up the kite when it's de-powered through the cleat. Having been kiting now for a couple of years I've realised that the work arounds are to 1. Avoid getting too close to beaches with sharp rocks and 2. go downwind on my board when I need to turn the kite in a hurry when over powered to reduce the over powering.

For some time I've thought that kites with front line pulleys are less prone to this issue because the kite can more easily rock forward on one side and backward on the other side using the pulleys but then I thought today of the kites using high splits and I realised that the high split also allows to tilt the top of the kite more easily using the high split y-junction as a pivot point.

Has anyone tried swapping between a bar with high split lines and a bar with low split lines to see if the steering changes, especially under high de-power?
jakoblondal
Posts: 87
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:50 am
Location: Denmark

Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:59 pm

Hi!

I have the large C4X and have tried to change the setting to high Y, starting on low Y. (Split)
After testing the kites (Nitro6 9-12m) with the high Y I think it turns better, gives it a "snappy" direction change.. But not that much that I think it has pros and cons on my every day looping, big air ect.

The steering will always power op the kite, if you fly it trough the window it will generate power, even if its full de-power. Thats just how a kite + wind work.
Like when you pump it to stay upwind when the wind dies. (Im not shure about, what you 100% mean)

You can always bring your kite to 12, this will stop the forward motion in very short meters.

Maybe your lines are out of "order" meaning they are not the same lenght.

Sorry for my lag of english, im just a stupid dane. :D

Ps. If I am totally wrong and of with my answer, let me know. ;)
fluidity
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:43 am
Location: Wellington/Porirua New Zealand

Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:58 am

jakoblondal wrote:Hi!

I have the large C4X and have tried to change the setting to high Y, starting on low Y. (Split)
After testing the kites (Nitro6 9-12m) with the high Y I think it turns better, gives it a "snappy" direction change.. But not that much that I think it has pros and cons on my every day looping, big air ect.

The steering will always power op the kite, if you fly it trough the window it will generate power, even if its full de-power. Thats just how a kite + wind work.
Like when you pump it to stay upwind when the wind dies. (Im not shure about, what you 100% mean)

You can always bring your kite to 12, this will stop the forward motion in very short meters.

Maybe your lines are out of "order" meaning they are not the same lenght.

Sorry for my lag of english, im just a stupid dane. :D
Ps. If I am totally wrong and of with my answer, let me know. ;)
Hi Jacko,
It's not a problem with my line length, I can boost and depower just fine. Bringing the Element v4 kite to 12 is not ideal either, I fly in gusty areas and if it's at 12 and there is a lull in the wind then the kite can dive down through it's own lines. Definitely I'll fly it more overhead when overpowered but the problem is that when de-powered to the max the steering re-powers it a lot. My Nitro version 5 is much better behaved in these circumstances as is my old Flexfoil and my Ocean Rodeo Prodigy. The Nitro uses the multi point fixed harness, the other non switch kites use pulleys on their harnesses. None of my bars have a high split.
The issue is that any pull on just one back line when the kite is sheeted right out needs to pivot the kite around it's front to back axis, not around the axis between the front lines. With pulleys the sides can move forward on one side and back on the other. With a high Y split, the centre of the Y can shift left or right as the tension shifts from one side of the front lines to the other and the kite can pivot slightly around the Y junction. A kite can steer by creating more drag from more lift on one side from pulling a back line but especially for a low aspect ratio kite with a strong inflated leading edge, the twisting force on one side is transferred to the other side because the inflated tube can't easily buckle. All these factors Bill Hansen must have been weighing up to create and refine the Switch kite brand so I'm hoping that the new designers will be able to do more than just follow other designer's trends.
Graham
jakoblondal
Posts: 87
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:50 am
Location: Denmark

Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:44 am

fluidity wrote:
jakoblondal wrote:Hi!

I have the large C4X and have tried to change the setting to high Y, starting on low Y. (Split)
After testing the kites (Nitro6 9-12m) with the high Y I think it turns better, gives it a "snappy" direction change.. But not that much that I think it has pros and cons on my every day looping, big air ect.

The steering will always power op the kite, if you fly it trough the window it will generate power, even if its full de-power. Thats just how a kite + wind work.
Like when you pump it to stay upwind when the wind dies. (Im not shure about, what you 100% mean)

You can always bring your kite to 12, this will stop the forward motion in very short meters.

Maybe your lines are out of "order" meaning they are not the same lenght.

Sorry for my lag of english, im just a stupid dane. :D
Ps. If I am totally wrong and of with my answer, let me know. ;)
Hi Jacko,
It's not a problem with my line length, I can boost and depower just fine. Bringing the Element v4 kite to 12 is not ideal either, I fly in gusty areas and if it's at 12 and there is a lull in the wind then the kite can dive down through it's own lines. Definitely I'll fly it more overhead when overpowered but the problem is that when de-powered to the max the steering re-powers it a lot. My Nitro version 5 is much better behaved in these circumstances as is my old Flexfoil and my Ocean Rodeo Prodigy. The Nitro uses the multi point fixed harness, the other non switch kites use pulleys on their harnesses. None of my bars have a high split.
The issue is that any pull on just one back line when the kite is sheeted right out needs to pivot the kite around it's front to back axis, not around the axis between the front lines. With pulleys the sides can move forward on one side and back on the other. With a high Y split, the centre of the Y can shift left or right as the tension shifts from one side of the front lines to the other and the kite can pivot slightly around the Y junction. A kite can steer by creating more drag from more lift on one side from pulling a back line but especially for a low aspect ratio kite with a strong inflated leading edge, the twisting force on one side is transferred to the other side because the inflated tube can't easily buckle. All these factors Bill Hansen must have been weighing up to create and refine the Switch kite brand so I'm hoping that the new designers will be able to do more than just follow other designer's trends.
Graham
The only thing I can come about is, when the kite gets full de-power and the wind is gusty it can for example go from 20 to 7 knots in one "gust". Not many kites can stay up in such gusty conditions. When the kite i fully de-power, the only thing "holding" it to the bar/-harness will be the front lines, as the steering lines is to long. It can happen with every kite, when it gets to gusty.

Its hard for me to imagine perfectly, as I can not see the kite doing what you are saying, and I only have an image of what i think it is doing, but I am not 100% sure. Therefore I do not have an qualified answer to your problem. :oops:

What about shouting at the guys from Switch on the chat?, maybe you have a better chance of getting a much more qualified answer to the problem there.

Best regards
Jakob
Jan:)
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:16 am

Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:58 am

What size Element are you talking about?

What you are describing is common on all kites I have flown (did not fly those you mentioned) that still turn when depowered.
It is much more noticeable on small sizes.

What happens is probably this:
As you are already powered you are trying to turn the kite with minimal pull on the bar.
This sends the kite into a really wide arc, generating loads of power even depowered.

What you want to do is, power up the kite as you are turning, pull it into a turn really hard and depower as it starts turning.
This will result in a tight arc, with much less power.

This is counter intuitive, but works pretty well for me.
Of course at some point the kite is just so oversized, that even this will not work anymore.
fluidity
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:43 am
Location: Wellington/Porirua New Zealand

Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:21 pm

Jan:) wrote:What size Element are you talking about?

What you are describing is common on all kites I have flown (did not fly those you mentioned) that still turn when depowered.
It is much more noticeable on small sizes.

What happens is probably this:
As you are already powered you are trying to turn the kite with minimal pull on the bar.
This sends the kite into a really wide arc, generating loads of power even depowered.

What you want to do is, power up the kite as you are turning, pull it into a turn really hard and depower as it starts turning.
This will result in a tight arc, with much less power.

This is counter intuitive, but works pretty well for me.
Of course at some point the kite is just so oversized, that even this will not work anymore.
Hi Jan, It happens on my 11m Element v4. Supposedly the v5 is better steering when over powered? It's not a problem with turning the kite in a wide arc, generating a lot of power, I've enough experience to be wary of that and to generate the power only when I want it. It's a problem though when I'm already very powered, screaming towards a beach with sharp rocks and with the bar fully out, the slightest steering generates more power than I can easily deal with. Part of the nature of gusts too. Anyway as I wrote up top, my workaround is to flip the board 180 deg and carve down wind. Then I have a reduced apparent wind speed and it's all easier again.
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